From: Lee Riemenschneider
Date: 25 Jul 2005
Is the real problem the education, or the fact that someone
would hire an individual with a masters of computer application program?
It's kind of unfair to label the aforementioned degree as,
"what passes for computer science these days". The real problem to
solve is the one of education of the hiring departments of companies. Demand
for (in this case) DB2 knowledge is what drives the creation of a masters of
computer application program.
It should also be noted that this type of demand isn't
restricted to immature disciplines like computer science. I have both an
electronics and software background, and have seen my share of electronics
engineering job ads that ask for experience with xyz product rather than the
requisite discipline that the tool targets.
Tool purchasing decisions represent a significant expense
that companies want to recapture. Unfortunately, the decision is often based on
marketing (ignorance). Once the path is taken, it would require a strong amount
of management bravery to admit it was a mistake.
This brings up another related problem; the path up the
management ladder isn't usually based on technical competence.
From: Fabian Pascal
They are related. Neither side is aware of, nor interested in
foundation education and the distinction between applications and databases.
It's a dual education problem: neither the hirers nor the
hired have it because they are products of the same system. Such systemic
problems don't usually get solved because they require collective action which
has an inherent inhibitor, see Mancur Olson's classical THE LOGIC OF COLLECTIVE
ACTION on the Interesting Reading page.
Absolutely. I am on public record stressing that this is a
general social problem, not limited to databases or IT. Indeed, the whole decay
of the west politically, socially and economically is a direct result of
abandonment of knowledge and reason. That's why the far east is emergent, and
why islamo-fascism is successful in attacking it, immune from a serious
response.
Yup. But it's really worse than that: often they don't even
realize they made a mistake, and even if they do, they can't associate the
problem with its cause and address it. This would require knowledge they don't
possess and don't care to acquire.
Well, it's a consequence of lack of education, ain't it? To
appreciate tech competence, one has to be able to assess it, and appreciate its
value. Impossible without knowledge either.
So you see, as I always say: systemic problem and vicious
cycle.
From: Lee Riemenschneider
I think you would find a similar syllabus at most major
universities in the USA. I imagine the degree mentioned in the article came
from a small college/technical school. Unfortunately, the major universities in
the USA are driving students to the smaller schools by rising tuition rates. I
know my alma mater has outpaced the rise in salaries by almost double for the
past ten years.
The syllabus itself is troubling. I have always been of the
opinion that (like in most other sciences) the foundation should come before
teaching specific implementations. The first few semesters should cover math,
logic, the relational model, and a lot of software engineering theory before any
look at programming and computer hardware. It's no wonder that most software
professionals have trouble learning platform independence.
Unfortunately, it would require the consumers to be educated
enough to drive the desire for management to be educated enough to produce a
correct product.
Has anywhere, anytime in the world had that level of
education?
From: Fabian Pascal
You're preaching 2 the choir.
Consumers and management are the product of the same
education system. That's what a systemic
Speaking generally, yes, it used to be better when I attended school and
university. It has been deteriorating ever since.
From: Lee Riemenschneider
I don't know. The grade schools are promoting a more
accelerated curriculum than when I was in school. The high schools seem to be
presenting more opportunities for extra-curricular learning. The job market
demands higher skills. You don't run into people who never made it past the
third grade anymore. I think the opportunities and drivers are in place.
Anyway, what I meant by level was percentage of population.
In the history of man, I don't think we've ever had a truly enlightened
populace.
From: Fabian Pascal
Sorry, but none of that is education anymore. It is
socialization and indoctrination into conformity, and training. The rise of
religious and corporate fascism and the decay of democracy is directly due to
that.
That's always been true of human society, but its been
getting worse and worse.
From: Lee Riemenschneider
True; there are strong drivers in the directions of
conformity and corporate direction, but there is still education. One has to
possess or have access to a strong opposition to these forces, and the
intelligence to use it. Religion has always been a tool for controlling the
masses. (Both from a carrot and stick point of view.)
Ignorance breeds ignorance; intelligent people can recognize
the problems inherent in overpopulation and unwanted pregnancy, so ...
From: Fabian Pascal
Intelligence is not enough, knowledge is also necessary.
Education develops both. Kill it and you kill any prospects.
Any attempt at education is being severely punished, any ignorance and
conformity rewarded. What do you think such a system will produce?
From: Rajesh Subburam
Date: 25 Jul 2005
Please refer the article Note On Chasing Mayflies:
Evidence written by you.
I feel, taking a specific case, you are trying to generalize
that the education on a whole is very bad (which is your point for a long time
now). In colleges, its common to choose software product related elective
papers while the whole theory subjects are still intact and taught. This is
required to give an industrial exposure(you hate this phrase, I know!) to the
students who have to find a job after college.
Do you prefer an electronic engineer to graduate after he
knows how to assemble/troubleshot a particular TV set(ignore the brand here!)
or an electronic engineer to graduate just after he knows the underlying
principles of a TV set?
There is another point here. The student you have quoted in
your article above might have written that specific letter to the magazine with
an intention of seeing his name on print. Just for the sake, he might have
praised the magazine and it's articles.
Do you know which college/university he belongs to? Did you
verify his claim is true(that the university really has DB2 UDB paper in its
syllabus?)
Below, I have posted MCA syllabus for a standard Indian
university. Nothing more to add.
Semester I
MCA-101: Digital Computer Fundamentals
MCA-102: Numerical Methods
MCA-103: Programming skills in C
MCA-104: Financial & Cost Accounting for Management
MCA-105: Discrete Mathematics
MCA-106: Programming Lab I : Information Tech lab.
MCA-107: Lab-II : C programming lab
Semester II
MCA-201: Microprocessor Architecture & Programming
MCA-202: Data Structures and Algorithms using C
MCA-203: Operating Systems
MCA-204: Computer Organization & Architecture
MCA-205: Probability, Statistics & Queuing Theory
MCA-206: Programming Lab III : Data structures using C
MCA-207: Unix &Assembly Language lab
Semester III
MCA-301: Software Engineering
MCA-302: Object Oriented Programming using C++
MCA-303: Introduction to Management Functions
MCA-304: Relational Database Management Systems
MCA-305: Computer Communication Networks
MCA-306: Programming Lab V: OOP with C++
MCA-307: Lab VI :RDBMS lab
Semester IV
MCA-401: Internet Programming
MCA-402: Computer Graphics &Multimedia
MCA-403: Managerial Economics
MCA-404: Operations Research
MCA-405: Elective Subjects
Artificial
Intelligence
Interactive
Multimedia
Theory of
Computation
Distributed
Computing Systems
Digital Image
Processing
MCA-406: Programming Lab VII : Internet Programming lab
MCA-407:Programming Lab VIII :Computer Graphics lab
Semester V
MCA-501: E- Commerce
MCA-502: Distributed Computing Systems
MCA-503: Systems Modeling & Simulation
MCA-504: Compiler Design
MCA-505: Electives
Artificial
Neural Networks
Parallel
computing
Fuzzy Logic
& Genetic Algorithms
Bio-Informatics
Multimedia
Communications
Distributed
computing systems
Pattern
Recognition
MCA-506: Programming Lab IX: E-commerce
MCA-507: Programming lab X: compiler Design
Semester VI
Industry Experience and Project Work
From: Fabian Pascal
My critique does not (yet) apply to Indian academia and, in
fact, I've mentioned often that the reason the West is descending and the
far-east is ascending is due to the abandonment of education in the west.
But the involvement of american firms in the Far-East may well destroy that
education too in the long run.
See my other reply. The problem is systemic and goes
beyond IT. The function of university and college is not to prepare
for the job market, but to educate people. This function is being
renounced by academia under pressure from employers, students and vendors.
Indeed, to accommodate that pressure, current academics are increasingly
business hires that know and care only about products, and would not know what
education is if it bit them on the ass.
From: Rajesh Subburam
It’s really a bad sign(not for you, but for the industry,
that not many people are willing to listen. I agree, that the East is getting
dominated by the West's ideas and moving towards the West (the $$$ being the
reason behind). I already started witnessing change in college syllabus and
more people moving towards job oriented courses rather than conventional
degrees.
Many a times, I have seen "IT educated" people
treating computer systems as if the computers are magical work of God. These
people fail to see computer as yet another machine that helps businesses
running. They only focus on product X or product Y that's running on the
system. They are really missing the big picture and fundamentals. When these
people are given authority to design/develop systems, we can only expect, well,
what we can expect.
From: Fabian Pascal
I am hardly surprised, these things are readily predictable.
The only reason you could make these comments is because you have not yet
fallen prey to that nonsense.
Posted 9/23/05
