Mr. Pascal and Mr. Date – please continue your work. You are providing a valuable source of knowledge and experience. (I sent a comment a month or so ago, but wanted to elaborate after reading through the site further.) Reading your informative and commendable site has provided me with a wake-up call. Not because I didn’t understand the beauty and flexibility of the relational model – but because I never realized that people who DON’T understand it are alive, (un)well, and spreading misinformation. I’m appalled at the level of ignorance documented on your site. I consider myself a novice with relational databases, because of my limited practical experience. I’m a recent college graduate, and for the most part have only been functioning as a report-writer/analyst for the last five years. I’ve had the experience of working with some horrible, sloppily designed data storage systems. Getting accurate, usable information out of these was like extracting blood from a stone. In comparison, I was able to work with a better designed system that enabled me to fulfill any request for data resident in the system, no matter how obscure. So with my limited experience and undergraduate education – how on earth is it that I seem to understand relational fundamentals while others with far more experience (for example those in your Quote of the Week section) just don’t get it? Is thinking logically and rationally so far beyond the majority of our population? Unfortunately evidence seems to support the idea that logical thinking is beyond the ability of most of the individuals that comprise our species. In my “Introduction to Databases” courses in school, we were exposed to the mathematical foundations of relational design – but the majority of my classmates found it boring and a “waste of time”. They wanted to jump right in and start “making databases”, as if it’s nothing more than setting up a few tables. At the time, I didn’t realize such an attitude was indicative of a more widespread problem and lack of desire for knowledge and understanding. Karen Simmons 08/26/2005

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for an excellent site! Your site has inspired me so much that I will write my master thesis on a topic related to relational technology. Mårten Dolk 08/26/2005

I just found out about this website and started reading it. I found it to be informative and decided to get Fabian Pascal's book (I hope this is a good starter). As a modest database practionner trying to make a living, I always intuitively felt there was something wrong with SQL implementation and had countless endless arguments with developers and dba’s about why design is so important for the dbms cycle not to become a nightmare. Thanks to you, I realized now that all these arguments were mainly waste of time as I had the arrogance to try to educate people while not being educated enough myself. Being from a math and computer science academic background, my only effective db reading was Codd’s rules + some disparate writings of his (multi programming). The rest was drawn from logical “as objective as possible” extrapolation of these readings but that was deeply unsufficient I realize now. Thank you for what you're doing. We need people like you. Please don't give up. RB 8/5/2005

All praises to your voice of sanity in our society of willful ignorance. It’s refreshing to see arguments presented in a logical, substantive fashion. Your site is a light of hope. Karen Simmons 7/22/2005

I just wanted to thank all of you folks at Debunk for giving me a reason to continue doing my job!! And for providing me a safe haven where I can be reassured that I am not out of my mind for trying so hard to do this "modeling thing" well. I am faced with the "dumbed down" masses daily--and have almost abandoned all hope. ... Thanks for giving me the shovel I so desperately need to dig out from under all their "knowledge"!! Patricia Epifano A beleaguered fellow modeler/architect. 7/15/2005

I'm writing to let you know how much I appreciate your work on the "Database Debunkings" site. For me, as a database practicioner, it has been an eye-opener. I have little formal education in database management, but I always thought there was something fundamentally wrong with SQL, and with present DBMS offerings. And now, thanks to your site, I know what it is. I also know that my suspicions that XML had some sort of smell were entirely correct. Thank you! The industry needs people like you in the same way as the field of medicine needed Hippocrates. Keep up the debunking! Runar Bjarnason 6/10/2005

Database Debunkings: "Dispelling persistent prevalent database management fallacies" With a title like that, how it could be anything less than light, airy, and fun? Man, I love it when computer scientists get catty. I originally thought this guy might be a huckster using incredibly contrary views to try and beef up his credibility (which works with a surprisingly large number of people) but I think he makes some great points and also offers solutions. I think the attitude is just his way of trying to break past the inertia of these ideas. Hey, it worked on me, I just ordered his book "Practical Issues in Database Management: A Reference for the Thinking Practitioner" from Amazon. It has a forward by C. J. Date, a name which holds some serious weight in the DBMS community. --Steve Jenson http://saladwithsteve.com 5/20/2005

Thank you very much for sharing as you have the ideas and teachings you have in your writings. I feel I am very lucky to have stumbled upon your site. I have enjoyed and learned a lot from reading several dozen of your essays and articles. Again, thank you very much for sharing as you have in your writings. While our number may be small percentage wise, please know that there are many who do seek and value knowledge and sound reasoning. --Louis Gabriel 5/20/2005

I'm enjoying your web site immensely, and learning about relational databases (while unlearning some of the conventional 'wisdom' I'd acquired over the past few years). Keep up your excellent work. You're performing a valuable service to the tech community, even if few realize/acknowledge it. --John Donald 5/6/2005

I never write email to people on the net but your site has inspired me to do so. I like your site. You are consistent, interesting and imho usually correct which after 3 years of surfing/reading I think is incredibly rare. I think that points where I disagree is probably down to my knowledge of all things database being from bitter experience, rathen than learning, which I must say you have already (after a couple of hours) inspired me to change. Your site makes for interesting and illuminating reading which is a lot more than I could say about most sites I find out there. David Clark, Developer 3/18/2005

I have been meaning to contact you for some time about how much I appreciate the dbdebunk web site. I have been following it for more than a year now and have been studying both your Practical Issues in Database Management book and Chris Date's Introduction to Database Systems. I have also begun my study of logic with the help and encouragement of my sister. I am gradually trying to put some of the ideas into practice in my work. By the way, I came upon the dbdebunk web site because I went searching for someone other than me who was of the opinion that this XML thing just doesn't make sense. I count myself very lucky to have come across such a well reasoned and informative answer to my doubts. William Sisson 11/10/2004

Here is the reason I'm writing you: I've only recently become aware of dbdebunk.com, and have been reading it with great interest. The very first thing that struck me is that you have gone beyond strictly database concerns, and now write about the social and political aspects of a culture whose values inevitably result in "education" that leads to the kind of ignorance that prevents, quite literally, the products of that "education" from thinking straight. I was pleased to see that you are writing about these issues. Even if you were driven to express your ideas by exasperation, it is still good to see them expressed. Not that anyone will understand them, much less learn from them, and, furthermore, you will probably be branded "unpatriotic" (who knows? you might even join the ranks of terrorists) for your efforts. But intellectual honesty demands no less, and it's heartening, not to say most unusual, to see someone hold himself to that standard. Since your struggle in the face of questions that reflect an utter absence of understanding must seem like a futile one at times, I wanted to say that I'm personally glad that you're doing it. Put me on your "reasons to keep doing it" list. Brian Marasca 10/29/2004

I have found your work immensely useful in understanding database principles. I and a few colleagues have spent the better part of two years implementing our own data storage platform, observing those principles as best we have been able to, with very satisfying results. Jesper Larsson, Ph.D.C.Sc., Apptus Technologies Research & Development 10/17/2004

I very much liked Fabian Pascal's article "The myth of market-based education". It brought to mind a quote from John Maynard Keynes: "Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." It also reminded me of the "crackpot realists" of C. Wright Mills: "Are not those who in the name of realism act like crackpots, are they not the utopians? Are we not now in a situation in which the only practical, realistic, down-to-earth thinking and acting is just what these crackpot realists call 'utopian'?" (from "Power, Politics, and People") Thank you for providing Database Debunkings. It is a much needed forum whose intellectual honesty stands in sharp contrast to the mass of uncritical and self-serving material found on the web. Roy Clarke 10/08/2004

I've been an appreciative follower of your writing for some time, and feel pretty much the same way as you about the corruption of the whole discipline by marketing drool. Keep up the good work - you help a lot of people, hopefully myself included, to do their best to use unsound products in as sound a way as possible, and that is worth a great deal. Philip Kilner 09/25/2004

To point it quaintly, It's good to see hard science come along now and again and remind us of our orgins...or how far we've deviated from where we ought to be in the first place. As your site points out, RDBMS are based upon mathematical origins and theories (that I would say are now proven). Unfortunately, most of the major database companies never saw fit to update their products since the 1980's implementations of theories from 1960's and 1970's. I've read some theories in the 80's and 90's while I was going through school and college that looked like they would have a major impact on information modeling. To date, those theories remain unimplemented in any of the major database systems, including upstarts like MySQL. Business Managers will never understand the difference between a RDMBS and Excel (and products like Filemaker or Lotus Notes that call themselves RDMBS don't help). To them, 'It can be done in five minutes in Excel, why can't it be done in less time in MSSQL or Oracle???' is the mantra of the day. Had I known that these were the challenges that I would be facing after leaving school, I might have decided to stay on and try to build the next killer database system and be bought out by the likes of Microsoft or Oracle. Please continue doing your work...Perhaps there will be some other upstart company that can revolutionize the world just by simply coding the mathematical theories on how our world goes round. Jefferson Nunn President Mind Dragon, Inc. 09/06/04

I came to know about you and your DBDebunk.com website quite accidentally a short time ago. I am of the opinion that XML is more hype than anything else, and as a technology is not very efficient, and was looking for evidence to either support my opinion or give me good reason to re-consider it. Well, a search through the Internet for just such information led me to your site, and I did lots of reading while I was there. The Central PA DB2 RUG has brought very knowledgeable speakers to the area in the past and I would like to continue that tradition by having you visit us. It would be beneficial to us to have the kind of education that you can provide offered to our user group. Therefore, you can expect to hear from her shortly. Or perhaps you could re-extend your offer to appear in our area to her, and get the ball rolling that way. However it happens, I look forward to getting your insight on how to best implement the relational model in our database environments. I couldn’t help but think what you would have said during yesterday’s conference when one of the speakers suggested de-normalizing data in order to increase the performance of a batch update job. I could just imagine you thinking, “Here we go again with that myth!” Mark Schmidt Database Administrator Democratic Information Technologies Pennsylvania House of Representatives 09/03/2004

I can not remember where I first heard about your site (USENET maybe?), but it has been a great find and an interesting read. I have gone through it two or three times now, and I pick up more each time. With this in mind, I have some suggestions and some questions. Gene Wirchenko 8/20/2004

Just a note to say your site is cause for much appreciation. Noted the change in appearance over the years - not too sure about current appearance, miss the search facility that you once had. But pleased to see the political dimension. I imagine you will have marked the recent death of Sidney Morgenbesser, an individual that I suspect will have appealed to your sense of the debunk. Lots of anecdotes about him, here's just one - Asked to prove a questioner’s existence, Morgenbesser shot back, “Who’s asking?” and many more M.Rigg 9 Aug 2004

Keep fighting the good fight. Timothy D. Blank Sr. Database Administrator Administrative Office of Pennsylvania Courts 16 Jul 2004

I just wanted to thank you for your response in email and posting my questions on your site. I have since gotten the PRACTICAL DATABASE FOUNDATIONS papers #1, #2, and #6, as well as your book PRACTICAL ISSUES IN DATABASE MANAGEMENT, and Chris Dates' AN INTRODUCTION TO DATABASE SYSTEMS, 8th Edition. I want to thank you for providing such a valuable resource and clearly reasoned information. I had set out months ago to prepare my own paper on the normal forms, and was dismayed at the conflicting information out there, especially on what I thought would be simple and fundamental points. Your site has been a lighthouse in the storm of misinformation. Jason Melton 1 May 2004

First of all I would like to point out that I'm a big fan of your seminars. A couple of years ago I had the pleasure to attend the two sessions you delivered at the PASS conference in Denver and they opened my eyes. I started reading your book and ended up reading several books from Date and Darwen and, although I'm sure I still have a lot to learn, they changed completely my way of thinking about databases (and of doing training, even if the context of a course focused on a SQL product). The more I read, thinking also at the articles on your web site and at several posts in the comp.databases.theory newsgroup, the more I realize how the whole IT field needs to be educated about relational technology. Gianluca Holtz 13 Apr 2004

I love your writing (books, articles, site postings). You're a beacon of rationality in an irrational (and increasingly confused) industry, and I rely on you and Chris Date to help settle and focus my mind - for example, after days "refactoring" (I'm always tempted to spell that with a U instead of an A) XML "data stores" here at work. Thank you. Eric Kaun 23 Jan 2004

My brief comments are based on my appreciation for your efforts to raise the educational level within the database profession. It's certainly not that "path of least resistance" you might have instead chosen. In particular, your books have helped me a great deal in my database design work. PRACTICAL ISSUES IN DATABASE MANAGEMENT was especially good, especially once I found the errata to fix some problems I had on initial reading. Keith Lyon 10 Jan 2004

I am sure that all of you will remember Fabian Pascal from his former website, his books, his role as editor of the SearchDatabase forum and/or from his contributions to other sites. If you do not, a simple web search with his name will bring up many references to his work. He is a person who has been described as the last person alive to care about databases and the logic that goes into creating and using them. He is also quite entertaining by his no holds barred criticisms of those who got it wrong, which these days is just about everyone. From my knowledge of local databases and Fabian, I would suggest that there must be at least a few thousand people in this city who would enjoy his presentation, whether they now know it or not. Martin Pagnan 03 Jun 2003

Earlier this year I had the distinction of having one of my own articles debunked up by Mr. Pascal. My work was extensively quoted and critiqued in his inimitable style and I only found out about it a month later doing a google search on my domain names. The article was a short, bird's eye view of relational databases that I wrote three plus years ago. Since I view Fabian Pascal as one of the greats, I went over his critique and decided he was really right on. I was being imprecise !! Even though my original article was probably no worse the 99% of the similar material out there, I have a feeling it nicely encapsulated a few common ideas that really stick in Mr. Pascal's craw. Of course I revised my article accordingly and believe it is now at least 100% better (haven't heard anything back on that yet). In a weird way I found it flattering to be singled out in the same league as Celko. Unlike Celko I really think the work by Date and Pascal is extremely important and should be taken seriously. With individuals and businesses depending on the correctness of my work, I believe the scientific foundation for database management should continue to be explored, revised and implemented whenever possible. Maybe its because I studied Philosophy of Science at the University of Chicago, but I do have a soft spot for the type of writing on the DBDebunk site. It is extremely thoughtful and refuses to be dumbed down or made super polite to reach a wider audience. I think industry types like Celko are often too sensitive to the hyper-critical style of discourse that Date and Pascal thrive on. Anyhow, back to work. If anyone is interested, here is the link to revised version of my debunked article: http://accesshelp.net/survival/relation.asp Dave Kawliche 2001